Justin is the full package. He's handsome. He's smart. He's the life of the party, but now well into his 30s. He's never had a boyfriend. Not only that, he's never been on a date. This is Exit Interview.
Hi, I'm Yue Xu.
And I'm Julie Krafchick.
We are active daters turned dating sociologists. We have this other podcast called Dateable, where we've spent years exploring everything from attachment styles, you all of that to sex parties. Some of y'all love that.
And now we're taking our dating advice to a whole new level here on exit interview.
And if you've been listening to the show, so far, you know the drill. But for anyone new, we have our data that we're featuring, that's wondering what is going on in my love life, why aren't things clicking the way I want them to? And we talk to their old flames their exes to really go into what is happening for them.
Yeah, and today, we're doing something a little bit special, because we're talking to someone who doesn't have any access at
all. I think a lot of people can relate to this at a certain age, you feel like you should have had more data, your relationship history than maybe you do. And we can really get in our heads on this. Like I know, for me, I was definitely a bit of a late bloomer, I probably didn't really start dating to like my late 20s. And it was something you held on to like, there's something kind of missing for me. And we talked to daters before, like how do you not make this your narrative? And yeah,
the narrative is what defines us. And once we live in that narrative, it's hard to get out. Yeah,
you know, it's hard because I feel like dating and relationships is so central in our culture. And I do remember, there were times that I would, you know, want to be in something just to have something to talk about by friends. It wasn't because I actually wanted a relationship. It's that I didn't want to feel left out.
But also you're not alone. In this know, when I moved to San Francisco, I was shocked by the amount of people in their 30s, who had never been a relationship. But it makes so much sense. San Francisco, these big cities attract people who prioritize their careers, prioritize their life experiences, and maybe not their love life. And
you know, we all have had relationship experience. It might not be romantic, but we all relate to people every day. We have friends, we have family, coworkers, all that is relational experience. And we can't forget that how do we start to gravitate and hold on to all the experiences of relationships we've had.
Which brings us to our guest today, Justin has a heart of pure gold. When we first spoke to him, we fell in love with him, but he wasn't sure he would be a good fit for exit interviews, since he's never been on a date, he claims and he didn't have any old flames for us to talk to. But we loved him so much that we couldn't pass up on this opportunity to help him out. And so we customize this episode for his particular situation. And we have some really fun surprises for him along the way. So please welcome Justin
All right. Okay, thank you for being on the exit interview. Thank you for being part of this experiment and experience and trying to see how this goes. Here's what we know about you. In a nutshell. You are a perpetually single gay man living in Austin, Texas. You are surrounded by friends who absolutely adore you, you proclaim that you've never been on a date. And despite trying your best on dating apps, you have been ghosted a lot and can't get anyone to stick around. You now live in Austin, but grew up in a tiny town in Tennessee, where coming out and finding self love was a challenge. We know that you are an extremely giving person with an infectious warmth about you, and a gorgeous beard. And you are dying to figure out what is getting in the way of actual dates and deeper connections with men. We're going to hear from the people in your life who know you very well. And we want to decode the big mystery of why can't Justin get a date? What are you hoping to get out of today?
out hoping you know, talking to experts that I can let the wall down a little bit because I really had to teach myself really, I mean, growing up in small town that was one other gay guy in my school. Well, that you know of that. I know. Yes, he was openly gay. But at that time, I just wasn't ready for that. He was like out and loud proud when we were in high school and I didn't come up till I was 23. So I'm hoping you know, you've asked me
dissected and just helped me feel a bit more comfortable. And you know, I'm not looking to get married tomorrow, but I wouldn't like to date and I do want to, you know, have kids and stuff like that. So, you know, I'm hoping that whatever you guys tell me, I'm gonna take it perceive it and use it.
Love it. Well dissect. We will.
So let's go back to younger Justin, when you were ready to come out, how did that go?
I did like a tour. So I was going around telling people exactly what I was doing. And I told one of my really good friends, and it was about 15 minutes from leaving her she pulled off Facebook.
Shed. Yeah,
yeah. That moment, actually. And so I didn't really get to have that, you know, coming out on my own.
Wow. I can't believe that happened to you. I'm so sorry. Let's try to break this down, then. You've never had a romantic relationship. Is that correct?
That is correct. Have I been in love? Yes. Okay. Okay. That person? Well, I know that person just wasn't ready. I would say that, yes, I was in love. And I think my friends that were around at that period of time and saw the interaction between us website design, and he also did say he loved me. So I
was in a romantic relationship. It
never ever got physical, other than holding hands.
So your love, but you're not dating, like what was kind of the reasons why things didn't progress.
Well, he had a girlfriend got it. Okay. That's a major indicator out there. So lightly. So we actually met at work COMM But he got really touchy feely with me. And so I was like, Okay, are we then do you like me that way? And then we have the conversation, and he was just like, I'm not getting. Okay. Okay. Wow. So I was really in love with him.
Wow,
this whole never been on a date. Like, how do you define a date?
A day is actually if we're going out. And we both are stating this is a date. So if he asked me, let's go to dinner, it is a date. That's about Department yesterday,
we talked to people everyone was like Justin actually goes on quite a lot of dates, so many.
Too many dates.
I don't know what they said.
So we were just confused, basically.
Yeah, no, it's definitely not. So the apps have been used. Obviously,
we're already seeing some of the patterns come out, which is like around labels and identity. And it sounds like what happened to you nine years ago, you were already trying to get Take back your narrative about your identity. And you were in love with someone who was not even close to that yet. Right. So now you're on this journey to really coming into your own. And that's what we're hearing from your friends that you've put on this list for us to reach out to.
We're gonna start with the first one of your friends. And we talk to Kenisha, who's even more than a friend she is your cousin. She is 11 years older than you and almost raised you. Yes. Can you tell us a little about your relationship with kaneesha? And why you chose her as one of your exit interview participants?
Absolutely. I mean, there's only a few of my family members that I've talked to actually, I've talked to her twice today. I definitely choose her. Because this is important to me. So I wanted you guys to talk to people who I knew would give you all the tea. Even if I didn't want him to Oh, she did.
Without further ado, let's get into it with Kinesia.
We're more than friends. We're cousins. So I've known him his entire life.
Oh, Vika does have some good insight for us. Yes. So from your expert have hidden what's going on in terms of dating life or lack there of dating life for Justin?
To be honest, I have no idea when I tell you. He's probably the most caring, loving, compassionate individual. People are automatically drawn to him. We're just walking in San Antonio on the Riverwalk. And people would approach him I mean, he's like He has this aura about him that people just like are drawn to. And when he comes to visit me, his app will be blowing up. My app doesn't go off like that.
So his app is like he's getting a ton of matches. But none of them go to dates.
These people just want to hook up to which he doesn't want You've just made and he's like, I want to go on a date. But he is a giver by nature. He's very nurturing by nature. And somehow, he's drawn to people who are really projects who he feels like they need him. And they may need him. But then where's the line between need and use? And so you have to be very aware of like, Are these people, will these people reciprocate when you need them? And I think that's what he's finding, like not all, people reciprocate on the same level that that he does, because he will literally give you the shirt off his back when he doesn't have it to give. What's an example
that you've seen that you're like, Hey, Justin, this person is borderline using you. But you're not seeing it,
actually. And it's not even relationship wise. I think it was more of his mom. Okay. And I think that is where the issues have started. Because he gave her opportunity after opportunity when he should have probably cut her short, a long time ago. And sometimes, you know, people just need to feel needed. And maybe that is, is what his thing is.
Can you recall, when was the closest he's ever been to a relationship?
I think Justin, like someone who's kind of a take charge, he would love someone. It's a take charge, individual. And that was one guy a few months back that came across that way. But he wasn't upfront, you know, with Justin and a guy was actually in our relationship. But then he began to try and gaslight Justin into thinking like it was Justin, what's the problem? And not him? Not funny now. But I just think he just tries to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Mm hmm.
There's some meaty stuff in there. There's some heavier stuff in there, too. But I want to start with the, with the lighter comment of your app being blown up all the time. Yeah, attracting all kinds of people from everywhere. But it seems like you still can't turn those interactions into dates. Tell us more about that. How much time are you spending on apps like Grindr?
Oh, I'm on Grindr and scruff. But But no, I seriously, I think like she said, You know, it's more of this the hook up. I mean, obviously, look at the name of the app. So I mean, we know what it's there for. But I'm that I'm just that little, that little country guy that thinks that maybe there might be a friendship or something else that comes out of it. I know, it probably sounds so stupid. But, you know, there have been some guys that I've actually had conversations with, and we never actually hooked up.
I did see your face cut to change a little when can you just said that you were drawn to projects? Can you kind of tell us your thoughts on that?
It's funny that she said that, because I always tell my some of my friends that are single, that they do that. So clearly, clearly. I may be projecting because
Do we just have our first breakthrough? Right now?
I mean, this is our really do guy.
Like, I just like to help people. I guess I am drawn to quote unquote, needy, broken, I wasn't broken. But like, I genuinely want to help people. If I ask you. How are you doing? Don't give me a generic I'm doing all right. If you're doing horrible say, Actually, today's horrible, let's talk about it. And I'm but I'm that way with anybody's anybody on or even on the app. I've had guys like I had a bad day. Tell me about it. And I think they kind of get like, hold on. You actually care. Yeah. So Tim was gone.
And we don't want to suppress that part of your personality, because that's incredible. And you know, there are definitely boundaries of how do we maintain that but also put Justin first. We'll keep going on that later. That's going to come up again.
Tell us about this guy from a few months ago that you
go grab a sip of water we'll be right back
and tell us about this guy from a few months ago that you know was in an actual relationship sounds exactly like what happened with the guy from nine years ago.
This guy was not really the typical type not go for and he was somebody who actually computer conversation so I was initially drawn to that. It wasn't a anything sexual. We just literally the first day we talk on Grindr, we swapped phone numbers and we talked for like, two hours. I'm like, Okay, I didn't say anything yet cuz I don't wanna get too giddy after two hours to talk to somebody. And there was one night he said, Well, let's hang out, you know, come over, and I was like, Sure. And we were sitting on the couch, and at one point, like, he kind of like, shrugged for me to come over and like cuddle and I was like, okay, cool. And then there was one particular day, we were on the phone, and he had mentioned having a boyfriend, and then that to make it worse, he, he's like, Well, you know, I'm boyfriend. I said, Well, what was awful cuddling? He said, Oh, you call that cuddling? And I was like, well, if two people were laying on the couch against each other, with their arms around each other, yeah, that's generally Paul cuddling. But he said that, that's not what it was. And I was like, okay.
That is definitely gaslighting. Yeah. So we know that you're looking for something serious? Mm hmm. Have you tried anything other than apps?
I haven't really been out that much here in Austin yet. I was in that person who two years still COVID. Now we're all going back out now. So you know, I've met a few guys at work that are gay, and actually are trying to make friends because I don't have any gay friends. That's the issue too. That's been a problem for me. Anytime I've been around any gay guys, and it's gotten awkward. I actually feel like, probably gonna sound horrible slam is, but sometimes I feel more comfortable with my strike friends. And the reason is because I've actually been told from a gay guy at a gay club one night, that I wasn't gay. And so so I've heard I'm not gay. But I also heard I wasn't black enough. So I'm okay. Well, well, what is it? I mean, I'm just just,
yes, exactly.
Yeah. Okay, we're gonna get to your next exit interview participant here. And this is Kayla. Kayla is someone you consider basically your sister in law because she's married to your best friend. Why is Kayla, someone that you wanted us to talk to about your dating life?
Kailyn are very similar. We are strict to the point and we will give you what you're asking for. And she has been someone that I have just I love her. She and I have just been super duper close. Like I said, I call her my sister in law. And so I did have her input because I just knew she'd be the perfect person to talk to.
And she was she was and she was definitely straight to the point that
Oh, yes, she's, yeah, let's, let's hear what your quote unquote sister in law had to say.
Okay. He's very loving person. As soon as you start talking to him, you're like, wow, I mean, you just there's you click. He has that natural ability. So I mean, a lot of people, if they think that he's in for it, though, they'll shoot their shot with Justin's a super trusting person, but at the very same time, a standoffish person, he's very guarded. He's been through a lot of betrayal and pretty rough stuff. So it's harder for him to be able to get close to people without him automatically assuming that they're gonna, you know, screw him over.
Can you give us some examples of when he's been hurt and betrayed?
You know, it has his mom, there's a lot of, you know, distrust and abandonment because a lot of his family was like, Oh, well, I gotta believe mom. Yeah, I felt that.
It's a lot. Of course, we're here to talk about Justin's love life. Yes. Do you think he knows what he's looking for? Like, do you think he has criteria? Or do you think it's more just, I'm open to anything.
He's looking for someone who has the same life goals. And, you know, for the people that he attracts, they don't have the same life goals he's looking for, you know, marriage, kids, a trusting relationship, a friendship, one particular perfect person, and unfortunately, that that person's not out there. So physically, Justin, you know, isn't to like someone masculine. He himself. I mean, he has mostly straight friends, little to no gay friends. So he's, he's out that he's not in the community. So all of his friends are straight. He's looking for someone that you know, is basically straight but wants to date men.
What do you think he's like on dates?
He hasn't been in a relationship before. When you go through, you know, the crappy relationships is when you find out what you really want and you You know, people's red flags when they when they're there, he knows that he's got to get out there. But, again, where I think it gets muddled is, he doesn't want to be rejected, right? It's that it goes back to that like abandonment and rejection. And he doesn't want that. So he just doesn't, he doesn't go out. Because, you know, he hangs out with mostly straight people until you get to know him, you won't know that he's gay. So he's afraid, he doesn't really fit in with the straight community. If he goes out into the gay community doesn't really fit in there. He's not your typical gay man. So I think, again, that fear of rejection is just holding in just holding them back. As soon as you know, he starts feeling a little bit of, you know, hey, I've been there, too. I got it. And he dumps all of that baggage. He's been through a lot of betrayal and pretty rough stuff. And it's pretty quick. I guess kind of what I have a vision in my mind of that being is like Justin's carrying around all this baggage. And then somebody's like, Hey, I think you know, you're carrying it around. Let me have some of that. And he's like, huh,
so there's a lot of trauma dumping. That's what it sounds like. If you can set him up with the perfect man.
What would this guy be like?
A masculine, red haired man. Country Boy, basically, southern hospitality gentleman who's able to accent Justin the way he is, you know, in all of his Sass and excitement and baggage, and someone who's going to stick it in there.
Stick it in where? Oh, God. Someone was just gonna stick it in there. He's
gonna stick it in there. And also, it was gonna stick in there with.
If you had to give Justin one piece of advice. What would it be?
If you don't put yourself out there, you can't find what you're looking for you just nobody's going to be able to sincerely accept you until you put it out there. He wants so badly for people to love him.
So we're starting to see some patterns, that's for sure. baghouz What are your thoughts about this kind of trauma dumping that was brought up?
For right? I mean, like I told you, I love to come out. I love talking and getting to know somebody, and maybe I should spread it out. And not the first week, because it is a lot.
I mean, this is something that comes up time and time again that dealers feel like I'm bonding with my date by sharing all my deep, dark secrets at bypass life. And we see time and time again, that's not what actually forms the connection. And I know personally, from my own experience, when I used to do that I would get ghosted, but when I started approaching it more like I'm just gonna have fun on this first date. And, yeah, if this person sticks around, there is so much time to get deep and share all about myself. But this definitely is something that we see getting dangerous way. So I'm really glad that she was able to call that out.
Absolutely. And that's why I chose for her to be someone for you to talk to. Cuz I knew that she was gonna give it to y'all. I honestly,
I do want to balance out her comments here, because she did say two things that could seem contradictory, but I do think they are complementary. So she's saying, Don't trauma dump, but also put yourself out there. There are two very different concepts. I think the trauma dumping, what that does is that you become defined by your trauma. People know Justin by the trauma that he's been through. But what she was saying is putting yourself out there means who else is Justin, who is just in beyond the trauma, the trauma has defined you up to today. But who is Justin today and then moving forward? That's how I kind of interpreted that. What are your thoughts on putting the holistic Justin out there? Aside from the trauma?
I'm here for it, and that's honestly moving to Texas has helped me do that. But yeah, I mean, I think that's what I had to do. I have to stop talking about the past just and let's talk about the new Justin let's talk about the single Justin that's here in Texas, a good career and, you know, stop the trauma dumping.
I feel like we have more of your friends that we tapped for feedback. You have no shortage of friends. That's
really bad.
Okay, so next up, we have Jordan, who is your old boss and a great friend there. And from what we've learned, you live together, so it went beyond just a boss relationship. Yes, yeah. Or what kind of insight does Jordan have that made you want to choose her
living with her and her husband for three years. And so sleeping with them, like they, we would go out and do stuff, and they will see what type of guys are like,
well, let's hear it for Jordan of what she had to say.
He's a grand person, he's gonna be he's a big personality. He's just a grand gesture kind of guy. And he's just got this energy about him that you just want to be near him, and you want to do these grand things. You want to go catch a flight with him to New York and walk around Central Park. He just you just feel like, you know, you're going to have the best time.
Do you have an idea of what it may be that is holding him back?
him? It's him getting in his own way. Tell us more. He's very particular. And a lot of times because he is so particular, he will close himself off before it's open to the idea. So I don't know how many times we've had things where we're like, just go dry. What's the worst that happens? You kind of expect him to be a guy that's like, Yeah, let's go. Let's do this adventure. Yeah. But when it comes to his heart, he's He's a lot more guarded. What is he particular about? Everything habits looks? Gosh, I feel like we've been places where he's like, is that guy listening to that kind of music? And we're like, what does that have to do with anything? I mean, good. Gosh, man, oh, he drives a Toyota. Okay? Because he does have some great prospects he's talked with. But once things start to seem like they're going in a good direction, he finds something. He always thinks that he's going to end up with a redheaded country. Boy, if you don't fall in that sometimes I think he kind of closes them out beforehand. I think sometimes he looks for superficial reasons. If he gets to protect himself, because of all the hurt he's had,
do you think it would benefit him from just going on more dates, even if they weren't with people that necessarily would lead to marriage and kids? Or do you think it would be better for him as a person to be more selective on who he lets through the pipeline? And kind of just go for the people that are like, ready?
I think he needs to look at his definition of date. I think he always wants to have a date that is just this spectacular, whisk you away hot air balloon over Sedona and have this beautiful thing this this great day. So I think going on more casual dates would be so beneficial for him if he could break through the fact that meeting somebody for coffee is a date meeting somebody for drinks one night that that counts as a date, instead of idealizing it so much.
Do you think he's immersed enough into the gay culture? No,
no? No. Oh, my gosh, no. I wish he would do more stuff. But I think he's missing a lot of community. And he needs people to be around him that know what he's gone through. I don't think he is nearly immersed enough. I think he needs more of that.
Why do you think he's so resistant?
I think he doesn't want to be seen as like a stereotypical gay man. I think he has some sort of thing in him where he doesn't want this flamboyancy or things like that. And I think he still has it ingrained in him from growing up in small town, Tennessee, that this is how it's supposed to be or this is how
it is. What is some parting feedback you would give him be open
to all facets of relationships and love, be open to the idea that it doesn't have to fit in a special little box that you have decided to pursue? There's so much love in the world. Like don't close yourself off just because you want to receive a specific kind.
I wish people could have seen your facial expressions during
a lot, but also a lot of the same stuff we've been hearing right, we're hearing all these patterns. Yeah, one big theme was this, you know, finding community again, finding belonging and also being comfortable in yourself. And then the second theme is like, how you view dates, we asked the question from the very beginning. What do you view as a date? There are limitations. If you think dates are these grand gestures where you have to say, Well, you go on this date with me. That was, you know, like a huge gesture. Can we get you into a state of going on dates as meet and greets as these casual hangout they can't be casual hangouts because you're just getting to know someone that you really don't know it's a string danger. What is stopping you from asking people out on more casual dates? Does that scare you? It does,
like, and I feel like I don't, I think because I am to use all my phrases I use, I think I'm living in like a Little House on the Prairie day. And I think I'm supposed to be asked.
I'm wondering if that's fair getting it your way, though, you know, like she pointed it out to like, maybe the pickiness is almost a shield, right to not let people actually come through, we see this time and time again, that a lot has would you're like kind of waiting, or you have these rigid rules, a lot of it's a self protection mechanism. And it's really fear driven. And honestly, the biggest danger is not doing anything at all, and not taking these risks. So yeah, I mean, also, just to add one more thing, redheads, we're talking about one to 2% of the population that you factor in gay bed. And I think it's important to stay open, but it can't just be like, I'm gonna stay open, but I'm secretly hoping for this type that is good. We need to drop the type. Absolutely.
strawberry blonde, you know, close enough.
A little open the funnel, and
you come off extremely confident people are drawn to you, they trust you, they probably tell you things that they probably shouldn't be telling you. But then we see this other side of Justin, where there is a little lack of confidence. And maybe that's kind of the disconnect is that you come off so confident. But then when someone wants to see the true, Justin, you may come off a little closed off or you may you know, kind of shun people away from that. How can we get you more in that confident? Justin, not just externally but internally to? Um, what are
you working towards that, like, just being able to look back at all the stuff I've done? I have I have I moved to New York, I moved back. So I'm an awesome, I've done a lot. I'm probably will say probably I am in like the best position I've been in ever. Yes. You know, financially, like I've got down here. And so it working out last like 30 pounds. Like it's been a great thing. So like I am working on myself, and I'm working on myself. So now I'm just like all them have said I guess got my guard down. And not all the way but maybe halfway and start letting some people in. It's just honestly, it's so scary to do that. With my trust issues. Well, I think
you hit the nail on the head. And I know you've been through a lot of trauma. And it's hard because you've even though you've never been in a relationship quote unquote, it sounds like you have been in a toxic relationship. Yeah, toxic relationships can be family. And what we've seen for patterns with other daters too is you don't want to make the same mistakes again, and you hold that close to the chest and it's hard to trust, it's hard to open yourselves up. But also for you, it's the balance of not giving everyone a chance either. So I think it's how do you get like really crystal clear of like, what's important to you? What are your non negotiables? What are your needs? Like? What does Justin? Watch?
Definitely hearing them? What two or three of them is that community? Yeah, we've had conversations. I've never heard them say that. So that's,
that's great. That's great.
We actually have a surprise special guest Oh, you know, he's been listening in on this conversation.
See,
hold tight, this exit interview will continue in just a moment.
Because you and I are hetero women in a lot of your friends are too. We wanted to also provide an opportunity to speak with someone that's been through it himself and has helped other gay men as well. So we have Michael Diorio. So a little bit about Michael. He's a Certified Life and wellness coach, and he's a primary leader of the Gay Men's brotherhood, a conscious community for gay men to connect with each other on the journey of healing. His specialty is helping gay men overcome the struggles of modern life by cultivating constructive mental habits and developing emotional growth. So we're going to bring on Michael, and we want him to be the sounding board for some of this identity community all the aspects that you know you and I might not be experts ID.
Thank you
Hi, Justin, nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you as well.
I've been listening and watching. This has been a lot of fun. How are you doing today?
I'm doing well. I'm doing well.
Thank you, Julie for the introduction. So yes, I'm a gay life and wellness coach, and I've specialize in fact on dating relating sexuality and self confidence. So yeah, I'm really curious today to talk to you specifically about your relationship with your gay identity and the gay community. All right, so I'm very curious to know, I mean, we talked about having a gay identity. It's not all of who you are, it's a part of who you are. Right? So let's, let's acknowledge that it's not the fullness of, of any of us our sexuality. But at the same time, we all have a relationship with that part of us, right. So as we're talking about relationships with other people, and externalizing it in terms of romantic relationships, or friendships, you I also want you to think of your relationship to that gay identity within you. So as you think about that, describe it to me, what is your relationship with your gay identity?
I'm gonna be honest with you. I don't I don't know. I don't think it's kind of like, I would like to be able to be out in the community more, I think it's just maybe being scared of rejection as well from our community. Like I said earlier, I think you've heard me say, I've been told I'm not gay enough. Am I black? Enough? So it's kind of like, I feel like I've been on this island by myself. So I don't know how to really describe my gay identity, to be honest.
Yeah. And I think that's that's the work, right? It's really good for me to hear that you've been going up more? What is your relationship with the gay community,
I'm still trying to put myself out there. And like I said, the a couple of guys that work. And then we do have a organization that work actually joined this week, that didn't even know we have for the gay community. And so I'm hoping to maybe sit in one of their meetings and kind of get familiar with some people and just know, the gay Austin, because I'm definitely proud of who I you know, that was a long time where I was so scared to even let it be. Now, people obviously made those comments. It's still a little bit of being scared and guarded. Because when you have someone that is like a community, and it wasn't just one time, it was a couple times tell you that you're not gay enough. I'm like, oh, what does that mean? What do you mean, I'm just being Justin, who happens to be gay as well. So I didn't understand.
You are gay enough. There's just no, there's no negotiation on that. And you are exactly where you need to be. No one can take that away from you, not me, not anybody else. When people say that, I think it's often a projection of their own, their own sexuality or their own issues of their own sexuality. So you know, like, like other things, try not to take it too personally, of course, it's easier said than done. But you, you get to define your experience. As a gay man, you get to define your community, right? One of the things I see a lot of is that gay men tend to think, and it is in the mainstream media, that it's all about glitter, and rainbows and pride and drag queens, which is great. That's, that's absolutely part of it. And part of it. That's wonderful. There's also so much more to it. Right? So a question I have for you is, where are you mostly engaging with other gaming
apps? Work with the few that I've met at work?
Yeah, yeah, apps apps is a tough one. I love the apps, they're great. But the experience that we have of apps is you're gonna get a very skewed, let's say skewed experience of what the gay community is, because it's highly sexualized, there's a lot more ghosting in there, as we've talked about, people show up very differently. And it's behind the screen, you're not actually interacting with a human, you're interacting with your screen. So as great as it is, I think, and you're on the right track, honestly, Justin is finding more of a balance, like use the apps to connect. But then I'd like to tell people ticket off the app, if you'd like somebody take it off the app fairly quickly move it to a date. And and I think one of the people had said, your your definition of dating might need to change a bit too. I think we call it a meet and greet. I love that. Call it exploratory.
Yes, I like that as well.
All of these little hurts all of these little traumas, all these little bit trails, it adds to the story. So you know, that's part of understanding that, hey, here's my identity as a gay man, it's gonna have some great parts to it. But there's also going to be some hurt. And you know, you mentioned therapy before, which was great, healing that and go through that process. But it's also equally important that you start building at the same time, great new experiences of what it is to be a gay man, and how you want that to look like like, that's such a fun empowering question. What kind of gay men do you want to be?
I don't know. I guess I've never really asked myself that question. I always have felt like I just didn't belong. And you know, growing up in a small town, I was the only black guy in my circle of friends. Because the black community didn't really accept me that much. There were a few. But being around, you know, other races, I was just accepted more into that. So I just, I don't know, I guess it's just you've hit the nail, you've actually got me at a loss of words, to go back to what some of them have said, I guess it is me being the type of person who looks for projects, because they need me. You know, the person needs me, and how do you get over that?
Yeah, buddy revelations.
This is a therapy session. I guess that would be the question for this weekend. What type of gay man do I want to be
when you're talking about belonging also, remember, you got to belong to yourself to all of you is worthy. And all of you is gay enough, black enough, just enough, Tennessee enough, or whatever that is, all your identities you are enough in that holistic way. So belong to yourself is it'll make it a lot easier to start putting yourself out there. Because when we talk about putting yourself out there, whether it's on a date, or in a community or even at work, it's vulnerability, it's, it's exposing who you are, and having the courage to be seen. You know, I teach confidence from the inside out. And that's what that means is learning who you are. So that when you are putting yourself out there, yes, you're going to open yourself up to rejection, judgment, all the things that people will do. But when you have yourself to fall back on and that sense of belonging within, it just makes it a lot easier, and also just a lot more fun.
And I'm slowly getting there. I can admit, I have a long way to go. But it's but I'm working. I'm getting. I'm Thomas, the train I'm getting.
There are so many people who would benefit from your story as well. Right. So one of the great things about community is, as you show up and be seen, you're actually helping others as well. Because your story Justin needs to be heard you are the community. Yes. As you start sharing your experiences, it actually empowers other people as well. So my advice is, go out there and do us all a favor and show us who you are. Show us your voice. I am in the Gay Men's brotherhood Facebook community. There's 6000, almost 6000 men in there. And we talk about personal development, mental health, sexuality, same as the podcast. So please, I invite you to come join us. I guarantee you'll have a lot of new connections in Austin.
I will definitely go. I can't wait to see you there, Justin. Thank you, Michael.
Thank you so much, Michael.
All right. Well, thank you.
Love that that's so actionable.
When we are constantly searching for belonging in molds. We won't find belonging because those bolts were created not for us. They're not us. And this conversation with Michael also just empowered me to think what is a life that I want to live? What is a narrative? I want to tell. And so if you come in to dates, and meeting new people with that mindset, people are just additive to your life. And you can ask that question is this person adding to my life? And if they are, let's keep hanging out. Let's keep having these meet and greets. Let's see what happens. But if they're not adding to your life, you don't need them. You don't need anybody to bring you down. Nobody can bring Justin down. Right? You're right. Like it
could be that, you know, you've been focused on building other parts of your life. Like there's other reasons why it's not that you just haven't been able to find a relationship or find a deed. And I guarantee like, if you actually look at your life, like there's are probably reasons I remember doing this exercise like with a therapist, and thinking like, I'm just not a relationship type of person. And she's like, let's look at these years that you were moving and you were establishing your own life. Like I think if you did look at like your whole history, it would tell more of the holistic version of Justin, not just Justin that's never had a date before I receive that, the more we can, you know, kind of give people the chant like the innocent until proven guilty, opposed to just assuming they're going to do this from the past. And I know, easier said than done. This is definitely on the therapy, personal development journey, this aspect, but it's really hard with toxic relationships to not just assume that's what a relationship looks like. And maybe you actually haven't seen like really great examples of relationships from your family. But how can you tap into your friend network because we know you have one or two other people out there to like, say like this is a solid relationship and they do exist.
I have several though that most of my friends are married. But yes, yes. I appreciate it.
What do you think the biggest takeaway for you was from hearing all this?
We'll be right back after this short break.
What do you think the biggest takeaway for you was from hearing all this?
The takeaway from this is I need to establish my community. And I need to let my guard down not be as picky. Yeah, clearly, Michael's question has struck me, I'm sitting here now. It's kind of just like, get off the island, I guess, go out and
love that.
So after hearing this whole conversation, what is like the one thing you're going to do?
You know, the word community, you know, so put myself out there. I need to quit hanging on to the past, quit hanging on to those people saying I wasn't gay enough or black enough. And I knew,
I mean, all your friends just kept saying, like, how I would say magical, just like how great of a person you are. It's like we are seeing this. And it's only a matter of time that someone special sees that we know that. We know, there's great gay men out there. We know that it's not if it's just when you're going to actually meet someone. And I guess it brings us back to our initial question of why can't just and get a date.
After it's myself, I gotta get out of the way and quit and quit blocking myself and put my guard down. If I do get hurt, right? It's okay. Yeah, it's not it may happen, just get up and keep pushing through with the family situation that's happened. That's what I've done. I've got I've pushed through. So now I just have to always say I'm very, very personable when it comes to just every interaction, but I always have just been really shot on that romantic side of things. And, you know, I have to let that relationship or non relationship, whatever it was go from years ago, and quit basing everything else off of that.
I mean, we could not have said it better. And you know, with the new definition of a meet and greets, I should be
very nice to meet you.
Great, yeah, you've got plenty of meet and greet dates. So I think this whole narrative of I've never been on a date, we can erase that negative. Yeah,
you've been on plenty of data, we can we can erase that.
This has been such a great conversation. We're so excited to follow your journey and see what happens next, because we know great things around the corner for you.
Absolutely. I appreciate it. This has been so fun. It really has I was a little nervous. But it's been so much fun.
That was a killer conversation. I
love him. He's so great. So many lightbulb moments.
And you know, I think we all get so fixated on this definition of a date, we think it has to be this formal thing. And at the end of the day, it's all about relieving to others. And I feel like Justin does that and can do that, in many ways, and should not be this hung up on the actual date activity.
This is gonna sound like a very detour comment, but I will bring us back is that when Julie and I used to do live events, people wanted it so bad to be singles focus, like dating focus, and we put our foot down and said, No, we're not doing singles events. Because why? When you put a dating context to anything, it makes things awkward. It sets these expectations and that aren't real. But when we have a fun social networking event that we've done in the past, we had a no pants party, just for anyone who was there in San Francisco was pretty epic. People have a good time because it's you're not there to date. You're there to meet new people. And that's how dating is is, is meeting and relating to new people and not thinking could this person be my future husband?
Yeah, I actually think that's what's fundamentally wrong with dating culture is that there is this etiquette and way that we are supposed to behave, and things that we're supposed to do. It's so contrived, that it doesn't let us just meet this person as a human being just going out into the Austin seat and Vida gay, bad at having a good time, building his community. And all of that is so essential. You don't know who you're ever going to meet, you don't know who they know, that they can introduce you to and you're just living your life. Yeah, Justin was absolutely receptive. And I think this whole element of community really sunk in for him. So we're really glad we're able to do this with Justin. That's a wrap on this special edition of exit interview. But we'll be back next week for another episode, which may or may not feature someone you're familiar with. If you've been listening so far. Do you have any guesses? Okay, let us know.
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We also want to just thank Michael for giving us his insights. And we'll
see you next week thanks
this episode was coordinated by Katya coupe alien creative produced by Samantha Martin and edited by Jen Jacobs. We are produced by Abigail steckler at little Scorpion studios with executive producer is UA Shu Julie Krafcik and frolic media. This is an I Heart Radio Podcast.