DER SPIEGEL: Mr. Chancellor, we are conducting this interview just a few hours after your return from a trip to Israel and Egypt. In Tel Aviv, you met with family members of German hostages. What did you tell them.

Scholz: My discussion with the family members of those who were kidnapped was very moving. They are, of course, afraid for their loved ones, who are being held by Hamas and other terror groups in Gaza. The families have a lot of hope that Germany can help out in this terrible situation. I told them that we are doing all we can to secure the release of those who have been abducted.

DER SPIEGEL: What exactly are you doing?

Scholz: Please understand that I am not able to comment on that publicly, in part so as not to complicate our efforts. One thing, however, should be clear: We are seeking unconditional release, and it must come as rapidly as possible.

DER SPIEGEL: Shortly before flying out of Tel Aviv, you had to leave the government plane and head for safety due to a rocket alarm. Were you afraid?

Scholz: No. Israel's Iron Dome is an outstanding defense system, and I had great faith in it. For the citizens of Israel, such situations are a terrible part of their daily lives – that is what I was thinking about.

DER SPIEGEL: What was your impression of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu?

Scholz: We had already spoken by phone several times in the preceding days. It was good to meet him in person now. For everyone in Israel, including for him, this remains a deep shock. The Hamas terror attack has delivered a significant blow to the sense of security in Israel. Now, the task now is, to the degree possible, to restore this sense of being safe in one’s own country. Israel has every legitimation under international law to defend itself from Hamas terror. That is what I told him during our conversation.

DER SPIEGEL: You have issued a clear warning to Hezbollah in Lebanon and Iran to avoid becoming involved in this conflict. What would happen if they did so in a significant manner anyway? Hezbollah is thought to have around 150,000 rockets at its disposal.

Scholz: I am not the only one who has issued this warning. The Americans have sent the same message. I am certain that our warnings have been heard loud and clear by those for whom they were intended.

DER SPIEGEL: If the conflict does, in fact, escalate, is there a possibility that German troops may get involved?

Scholz: The issue is far too serious to speculate about it in an abstract manner.

DER SPIEGEL: In the past, such missions had always been considered taboo. That is apparently no longer the case?

Scholz: Political prudence dictates that we never conduct abstract discussions about where in the world we might send our soldiers, but only engage in such debates in concrete situations when they arise. And we are nowhere near that point.

DER SPIEGEL: The Hamas attack on Israel was barbaric. Despite the justified anger felt by the Israelis, does a democracy like Israel have to temper its response, even in a fight against terrorism, so as not to lose sight of humanitarian imperatives?

Scholz: Precisely that is Israel’s self-image. But that does not mean that those who did this to Israel cannot expect severe consequences. As I have said, Israel has the right to defend itself and ensure its own protection and security.

DER SPIEGEL: Did you address those humanitarian imperatives with Mr. Netanyahu?

Scholz: There is no disagreement on the issue. Israel doesn’t need warnings from German politicians. I asked Prime Minister Netanyahu about Israel’s concrete plans for the military offensive. And we discussed the issue of humanitarian aid for the Gaza Strip. It is good, and vital, that it has likely gotten underway.

DER SPIEGEL: Following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, you made several trips to countries belonging to the Global South in an effort to shore up support for the Western position. That is now likely to become even more difficult, because part of the South has far more sympathy for the Palestinians than for Israel. Many see the Holocaust as being more of a Western issue.

Scholz: The Holocaust was a crime against humanity, and humanity includes all of the people who live on this planet. What we witnessed in Israel on October 7 was a horrific, murderous, inhuman terror attack perpetrated by Hamas against innocent Israeli citizens – against children, women, the elderly, against peaceful participants at a dance festival. That is seen as terror everywhere in the world.

DER SPIEGEL: There are apparently people here in Germany who don’t see it that way. On German streets, particularly in Berlin, there have been violent anti-Semitic protests in recent days. How is that possible in a country that has vowed to "Never Again" allow this to happen?

Scholz: Such acts are reprehensible. And yes, we have committed ourselves to "Never Again." That is why we must decisively stand up to all those who chant anti-Semitic slogans, who burn the Israeli flag, who unashamedly celebrate the death of those killed in the Hamas terror attack. They are all crimes that must be punished.

DER SPIEGEL: In recent days, however, it was possible for these crimes to be committed publicly.

Scholz: The police and judiciary are fighting against it. Because we cannot and will not tolerate this. The authorities responsible for public assemblies must ban rallies where there is a threat of such crimes being committed.

DER SPIEGEL: What is your message to those who demonstrated their hatred against Israel on the streets?

Scholz: That has no place here. The deeds of Hamas were inhuman and barbaric, nobody can be allowed to celebrate them. Particularly not in a country whose history is inextricably bound to the Shoah.

DER SPIEGEL: And your message to Jews who live in Germany?

Scholz: We stand at your side. The state will do all it can to protect Jewish life in Germany. And as citizens of this country, we will not allow ourselves to be divided. Attacks, insults or injuries inflicted on Jews are attacks on all of us.

DER SPIEGEL: Among those in Germany who harbor hatred for Israel are many people with Arab roots. Did German policymakers ignore for too long the deep hatred entrenched in some groups?

Scholz: I don’t agree that anyone has ignored that issue. We have been keeping a close eye on it for quite some time.

DER SPIEGEL: Apparently not close enough. Should Germany be paying more attention to who is coming into the country and who is allowed to stay?

Scholz: We have been doing that for a long time. But we will now be differentiating even more precisely. On the one hand, there is the immigration of workers that we need. And there are those who are seeking asylum because they are the targets of political oppression. On the other hand, though, that means that all those who don’t belong to one of those groups cannot stay. That is why we are limiting irregular migration to Germany. Too many people are coming.

DER SPIEGEL: How do you intend to lower the number?

Scholz: Through an entire package of measures. We are classifying Georgia and Moldova as safe countries of origin. Both want to become members of the European Union, as such it isn’t plausible to assume systemic oppression in those countries. We are strengthening the protection of Europe’s external borders so that fewer people are able to make their way to Europe. And we have agreed on a new solidarity mechanism in the EU: Refugees are to be registered in their first country of entry instead of merely being waved through to Germany. In return, they will be fairly distributed throughout Europe. The European Parliament will hopefully approve this mechanism in the coming months.

DER SPIEGEL: That will take some time. What can be done immediately here in Germany?

Scholz: We have now introduced stricter controls on our borders with neighboring countries, as we have just informed Brussels. And we want to reduce the incentives for remaining here irregularly. If German states say they want to provide in-kind social assistance instead of money, we will support that. If they want to introduce a debit card for asylum-seekers (eds. note: as alternative to cash payments, which are sometimes transferred back home or used to pay migrant smugglers), we will support that too. Furthermore, we think it is right to open up community service to aslylum-seekers.

DER SPIEGEL: Do you really think that will be enough to significantly reduce the number of people coming to Germany?

Scholz: As I said, it can only be done with a package of measures. And I haven’t even mentioned one important one yet: We must finally deport on a large scale those who have no right to stay in Germany.

DER SPIEGEL: What does that mean?

Scholz: Those who are not likely to be granted permission to stay in Germany because they cannot claim a need for protection must go back. To make that possible, our public authorities must be reachable around the clock so that someone can actually be deported when the federal police take them into custody. We also must finally press ahead with the digitalization of the Immigration Office – the paper era must come to an end. Procedures must be accelerated, with asylum applications and initial interviews taking place in the initial reception facility. Court proceedings must also speed up. In some states, initial rulings in deportation cases come after four months, while in others, it takes 39 months. That is unacceptable. We have to deport people more often and faster.

DER SPIEGEL: The states say that you have to create more jobs at the courts for that to happen – and that they need more federal funding.

Scholz: At a very basic level, I would propose that we quit pointing our fingers at each other and instead join forces and tackle things together. Everybody should do their part: the federal government, the states and the municipalities. The work of the immigration offices will change in the future primarily due to the fact that we are reaching agreements with many countries to ensure that they take back their citizens with as little red tape as possible. In return, we are creating legal migration paths for the workers we need. Because thus far, many repatriations have failed due to a lack of cooperation from countries of origin and transit countries. We are changing that.

DER SPIEGEL: You are striking a new, tougher tone on migration policy. What caused you to make the change?

Scholz: I have thought this way in all of the positions I have held. And I have spoken this way as well.

DER SPIEGEL: You haven’t spoken this way as German chancellor. You have left Interior Minister Nancy Faeser to deal with the situation on her own. Our impression is that the results achieved  by the Alternative for Germany party in state elections in Bavaria and Hesse have convinced you to change your tune.

Scholz: Your impression is wrong. I am opposed to tactical politics. It must always be about the matter at hand and about finding concrete solutions to specific problems.

DER SPIEGEL: We have a hard time believing that.

Scholz: And yet it’s the truth. Much of what I just described has long since been discussed by the government and is on the way to becoming reality.

DER SPIEGEL: Within your party, the Social Democrats (SPD), your new line hasn't exactly been welcomed with open arms.

Scholz: The SPD is completely supportive of this line. That is true for the party leadership, for the state chapters and for the parliamentary group. The German government will also jointly follow this line.

DER SPIEGEL: You are head of a coalition that includes the Green Party and the economically liberal Free Democrats (FDP). Do you really think the Greens are going to support your immigration policies after all they have been forced to swallow already? Is that not one imposition too many?

Scholz: It is our job to regulate immigration. I am certain that the German government will stand closely together on this issue. We all know what has to be done. And it is my job as chancellor to ensure that there is no delay. The important thing is that our policies are not driven by malice. We must be firm in cases where someone does not have a right to stay. But at the same time, we have to be open and modern, because we need workers from other countries.

DER SPIEGEL: Germany should be able to choose who it needs and who it does not?

Scholz: Around 13 million citizens of Germany – affectionately referred to as the Baby Boomers – will soon be heading into retirement. That is why we need factory workers, engineers, doctors, care workers. More young people should be completing vocational training. Older people should have better opportunities to find a new job later in their careers. And the business world must become more family friendly so that more young families can take part in professional life. To reach that goal, we also need more all-day schools and daycare centers.

DER SPIEGEL: And that requires immigration?

Scholz: We are also going to need more immigration. With the modernization of our immigration laws, with the Skilled Immigration Act, we have established the conditions for the talented minds and skilled workers we need to come to us from abroad. We don’t want them to just work here, but to live here and integrate – to the degree that they urgently want to become German citizens. From my perspective, it can even be linked with a bit of emotion, as is the case in the United States.

DER SPIEGEL: People should be chosen in accordance with their usefulness to Germany? Those taking such a position in the past have been accused of heartlessness by the SPD and the Greens.

Scholz: It is natural that we, as a nation, have the right to decide who we wish to accept – such as badly needed skilled workers and talented. That has no effect on the obligation to offer protection to all those who are fleeing political oppression, war and death. The fundamental right to asylum is a consequence of Germany’s history.

DER SPIEGEL: Those who demand limitations on uncontrolled immigration are quickly accused by the left of being inhumane and racist.

Scholz: That does happen. But that’s not how most people see it. What matters now is keeping our society together. Those who want unlimited immigration must be honest enough to say that we would no longer be able to maintain our current social-welfare system. We would have to accept conditions with problematic parallel structures, such as those that exist in other countries. Nobody can seriously want such a thing. But that doesn’t make us monsters. We have a responsibility to ensure that our body politic continues to function. A certain degree of toughness is part of that. You have to have the strength to tell people that they, unfortunately, cannot stay.

DER SPIEGEL: Are you not afraid that the AfD will tell its voters: We were right all along, and now the German chancellor sees that as well?

Scholz: That would be a blatantly false claim. Such concerns cannot be allowed to prevent you from doing what you think is right.

DER SPIEGEL: Can a liberal democracy only guarantee its own survival by sacrificing an element of its humanitarian aspirations?

Scholz: To put it bluntly: No. Liberal democracy must demonstrate that it is able to take action, that the state maintains control of things. We have clear rules, and they apply. Mass, irregular migration, when people are putting their lives at risk, is neither humanitarian nor progressive.

DER SPIEGEL: More than 20 percent of German voters say in current polls that they would vote for the AfD, essentially a right-wing extremist party with elements of anti-Semitism. Don’t you find that shocking?

Scholz: The growth of right-wing populist parties has distressed me for some time. It’s not just in Germany, it has long been the case in Austria, the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway, and more recently in Sweden and Finland. The question is: Why is this taking place in countries which, from the perspective of the rest of the world, are among the luckiest of all, with significant economic strength, high salaries and a functional welfare state?

DER SPIEGEL: Do you have an answer?

Scholz: It has something to do with insecurities. Many citizens are unsettled, even if they are doing well economically. The pandemic magnified those concerns. And we had hardly left it behind before Russia invaded Ukraine. And looming over everything is the vast question of how we can slow down manmade climate change.

DER SPIEGEL: What does that have to do with the AfD?

Scholz: To protect the climate, we have launched the greatest modernization of industrial society since the end of the 19th century – with expansion of wind and solar energy and the transition to climate-neutral production methods. It’s only natural that many are asking: Will it succeed? Will I keep my job? Insecurity creates new points of contact for parties chanting hollow right-wing slogans.

DER SPIEGEL: Elements of the AfD are officially considered to be a threat to the German constitution. Nevertheless, no serious efforts are being made to ban the party. How can you accept this contradiction?

Scholz: It is good that those agencies charged with protecting the German constitution are doing their jobs. But I am not in favor of banning the AfD. I am convinced that the citizenry will ensure that the impact of this party will once again subside.

DER SPIEGEL: As chancellor, what are you doing to achieve that goal?

Scholz: First of all, my clear message is that such right-wing attitudes have no place in our democracy! There can be no cooperation with such parties! Second, I am demonstrating by my actions that we are on the right track. That we have a plan for the future. After all, we have plenty of reasons to be confident.

DER SPIEGEL: You have been chancellor now for almost two years. Thus far, you apparently haven’t been able to come even close to conveying this confidence to the electorate. What has gone wrong?

Scholz: First of all, there are a number of things that have gone quite well, because the government has decisively addressed problem areas. We in Germany allowed ourselves the luxury of phasing out atomic energy twice, and we then resolved to phase out coal-fired power plants. But at the same time, we didn’t expand the power grid quickly enough, did not build enough wind and solar facilities and failed to invest enough in hydroelectric power plants and biomass. Under my leadership, the German government has now turned things around and initiated the necessary resolutions. By 2030, we will be generating 80 percent of our electricity from renewable energies.

DER SPIEGEL: Your coalition as a success story? That really hasn’t been our perception thus far.

Scholz: That's a shame! We can’t deny that some things have gone wrong in these two years. Within the coalition, we have engaged in an absurd, unending argument about certain political decisions. The citizens of Germany have often had as little understanding for it as I have. And that must now come to an end.